SSN Not Required

[Morton Thomson Jr.]

"Rare is the case that an employer actually needs an SSN. Indeed the Social Security Administration admits the numbers are actually their property and further that “no one needs an SSN to work in the United States.”

This latter fact isn't widely known, but NOT knowing and demanding an SSN where no authority to demand exists could get the employee demanding same, and his employer, involved in a civil action. Our recommendation is frankly to not push the SSN issue with employees. If an employee provides an SSN even on taxation forms it should only be done voluntarily and with NO adverse actions taken in case he refuses.

Form I-9: To our knowledge the only spot that asks for an actual SSN (and not an implied TIN) is on form I-9. However nothing in the law actually states the employee must provide the number. Because primarily government forms are intended for government employees, the majority of "spots for information" are considered voluntary when used by the general population NOT engaged in federal employment.

A twist: Indeed, the restrictions of public law regarding I-9 disclosures can actually RESTRICT the employer from using that number on ANY other form. In other words, do not assume you have the employee's permission to use that number on any other form or in any other way simply be virtue of its disclosure on Form I-9. You could possibly be in violation of the laws behind Form I-9!

Form W-4, Form W-2, Form W-3 and Form W-9: 

Let's examine W-4 first. The title of the form identifies it as an "allowance" certificate. Its only purpose is as a permission slip to ALLOW the non-governmental employer to withhold, (take) some money from the employee's compensation on behalf of government. If you think that ALLOWANCE implies a voluntary-act, you are correct! If the form is voluntary for those outside governmental employment, then what of its content including the spot for a number? We repeat: The submission of a W-4 form or any other alternative AND ITS CONTENTS is considered a voluntary act!

Common sense will dictate that one cannot make demands on behalf of government for:

(1) a form signed under oath, with:

(2) a severe penalty of perjury jurat for non truth when:

(3) someone is simply exchanging labor for compensation and when:

(4) the person demanding is not an authorized withholding agent of government.

Hint: Were you given a badge or written delegation of authority?

BEWARE: The IRS has consistently confused these two definitions especially in their publications and forms. Unfortunately-- as employers on our distribution list have identified--the IRS does not come to the aid of employers relying on IRS publications; the IRS is under the Executive Branch of government and that branch does NOT make law.

Thus, non-governmental employers make a BIG mistake if they automatically convert or assume one number for the other without the expressed permission of the employee. It is better to err on the side of safety and to simply refuse to "do the work of government”: In a government-declared "system of voluntary compliance by the making of a return", the non-governmental employer is without authority to create a "taxpayer": that responsibility is left to another. Our recommendation is that you as an employer should NOT attempt to "create taxpayers" from non-governmental employees.

REMEMBER: NON-GOVERNMENTAL EMPLOYERS CAN ONLY REQUEST AND NOT DEMAND!

Remember that the SSN is not "owned" by the employee and further your "need" is only to satisfy his benefit if he chooses to participate in government Social Security insurance and the government withholding program. Thus, if an employee refuses to include an SSN on any government form, that right is his own. These forms are creations of government and their existence and content cannot be made mandatory outside those in government employment.

Further, you need not inquire of his reasons. His reasons might range from religious "mark" aspects to simply never applying for an SSN or to not wanting to be forced to make an oath under penalty. And you as an employer have NOTHING to fear from not including an SSN on any government form you submit to government.

The fine for EACH employee is $50 and this can be waived by simply including this statement on the "transmittal document" you send with Form W-2 and W-3: "I requested an SSN [or Form W4]. This non-federal employee did not provide the number [or Form W4]. To my knowledge he is not a federal employee or government "individual" nor does he engage in federal (26 USC) "trade or business".

No law compels a work eligible man or woman to submit a form W-4 or W-9 (or their equivalent), nor disclose an SSN as a condition of being hired or keeping one's job.

With the exception of an order from a court of competent jurisdiction issued by a duly qualified judge, no amounts can be lawfully taken from one's pay (for taxes, fees or other charges) without the worker's explicit, knowing, voluntary, written consent.

Section 7 of Public Law 93-579 provides that:

(a)(1) It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual’s refusal to disclose Social Security account number.

There is no law requiring you to obtain or use the Social Security Number. The Social Security System is a voluntary System. The Social Security Act does not require a person to have an SSN to live and work in the United States of America, nor does it require an SSN simply for the purpose of having one.

If there was a law for the SSN, why does a major food chain, Taco Bell, have "optional" printed by the SSN on their applications?

The IRS only requires the employer/payer to request the SSN. If the employee/payee refuses to give or doesn’t have an SSN, the employer sends an affidavit to the IRS stating that they requested the SSN and the employee refused, (Indemnification Letter). The penalties will not be assessed against the employer.

See also:

Nowlin vs. D.M.V. 53 Cal. App. 4th 1529 Apr. 2, 1997

For video, see - http://constitutionclub.ning.com/

[Andee Kleinhans]

While I do not agree with the practice of "forced" euthanasia, I do believe that the living wills should be honored, either way.

[joseph cronin jr.]

Never give a " living will " , what it really does is give doctors an excuse to kill you as opposed to helping you live . Under O----CARE , if your old enough , they'll kill you at the drop of a hat . Especially if they've charged up your birth certificate bond to the hilt .

[Andee Kleinhans]

I believe Oregon has forced Euthanasia; Montana encourages it I heard from some contacts in Montana.

[Wayne Bachmann]

I am from Oregon, and I have not heard of forced euthanasia. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just that I haven't heard of it.

[Andee Kleinhans]

True, and in Basin, they bring the food in from Denver, adding to the costs!  They cannot have their own clothes even if it just sweats and thongs!  So, we pay for clothing also.

[Rosanna Miller]

HUH, I think I wrote that wrong......... "Is that legal? I don't think it is lawful or legal for someone to be paid to testify against someone" Isn't that like giving people bribes?

What say anyone out there? 

[Wayne Bachmann]

I think you got the picture!

Check out Title 18: 241, 242, Title 18: 4 (this one demands that you report the crimes)

Title 42: 1983, 1985, 1986

[Osceola Renegade]

Wayne,   Reply by Osceola Renegade below.

I am well aware of your Check out Title 18 - 4 and report it.  Misprision of Felony type approach.

My post below was to get a thought going.  See RULES OF THE COURT attached.

Rule 20. Procedure on a Petition for an Extraordinary Writ

• Issuance by the Court of an extraordinary writ authorized by 28 U. S. C. § 1651(a) is not a matter of right, but of discretion sparingly exercised.

It makes sense that if OBAMA vetos a Congressional Exercise to tell him to follow the law that they already know and acknowledge that OBAMA is breaking the law.

SO CONGRESS KNOWS OBAMA is a CRIMINAL in many WAYS.

But they won't act.

Title 20 gives us a door to open to make them act, or make the SCOTUS act.

SCOTUS Action could be to assemble a GRAND JURY to give a true bill.

Consider:  How could a big number of the members join in to file the required filing under Title 20 and Demand ROBERTS et al get off their dead asses and act according to law also. 

After all, if Obama signs a VETO - they do not exist any more!

[Wayne Bachmann]

Interesting. I think I'll copy it down. Thanks

[Morton Thomson Jr.]

The simple answer Rosanna is that all witnesses can be "compensated" for their time. You can "buy" cooperation from people.

[Rosanna Miller]

How much can they be "compensated" and how much can you "buy"....

Recently I found out the lawyer was paid to testify against me in that criminal case. It is on his list of charges. He was paid as guardian of my Dad from my parents estate. I don't think that is legal. He has a vested interest to keep me away.

There is a LOT I found out he got paid for that is illegal...Like getting paid for securing a bond that he never got till 9 months later after he turned in a inventory of assets missing $250,000 and I had to tell the court he didn't have one.

Getting paid for getting property and real estate inventories that he never got.

You can't get paid for doing work you never did. But he did

[Osceola Renegade]

Coup d’etat

On March 4, 1933 Franklin Delano Roosevelt (FDR) assumes the Office of President of the United States (POTUS) and with his Inaugural Address seizes and gives ALL Property and persons as collateral for the debt of the United States in “consecration” to its prime Creditors, the Vatican State and Crown’s City of London, and then on March 9, 1933, as POTUS Commander in chief Roosevelt, were HE the Military Conqueror “Augustus Caesar” of the American Republic, with the doctrine of necessity issues Proclamation 2040, Declaring a State of perpetual National Emergency via War Powers and based upon the FDR Proclamation 2039 of March 6, 1933, Congress passes the “Emergency Banking Relief Act” 48 Stat. Law 1; Thereby Amending the notorious World War I Statute

“Trading With the Enemy Act” of October 6, 1917, 40 Stat. L 411 (TWEA), Codified as 12 USC 95b and 50 USC App. 5(b) Thereby approving and confirming Proclamation 2040, And Bringing the TWEA Inland, Imposing Military Government  Interesting.

If Obama vetoes the law that says he has to follow laws, then there are no laws by decree.  Even the SCOTUS - There is no more scotus - by Y’ALL.

 There are no TAX Laws,

 There is No Federal Reserve,

 There is no State of Emergency. 

 It is all over.

There is no Supreme Court of District Courts.  Poof - down the toilet.

Simply because; the United States is a Country of Laws.

There is no Congress (The Bastards lost after all - by Y’ALL - you deserve what you get so go home).

 As George Perppard (A-Team) said, “ I love it when a Plan comes together.”

Obama handed us the Coup d'état  --- The War is Over.

Everyone can then stop paying taxes and tell the United Stated to go to HELL and be honest when doing so.

At the County Level, there is no more COMMON CORE, no more Agenda 21, no tax collector and no Property Taxes.

All because some Idiot thinks just by signing a paper that permits him to break the law, then we all can just do the same.