SSN Not Required

[Morton Thomson Jr.]

"Rare is the case that an employer actually needs an SSN. Indeed the Social Security Administration admits the numbers are actually their property and further that “no one needs an SSN to work in the United States.”

This latter fact isn't widely known, but NOT knowing and demanding an SSN where no authority to demand exists could get the employee demanding same, and his employer, involved in a civil action. Our recommendation is frankly to not push the SSN issue with employees. If an employee provides an SSN even on taxation forms it should only be done voluntarily and with NO adverse actions taken in case he refuses.

Form I-9: To our knowledge the only spot that asks for an actual SSN (and not an implied TIN) is on form I-9. However nothing in the law actually states the employee must provide the number. Because primarily government forms are intended for government employees, the majority of "spots for information" are considered voluntary when used by the general population NOT engaged in federal employment.

A twist: Indeed, the restrictions of public law regarding I-9 disclosures can actually RESTRICT the employer from using that number on ANY other form. In other words, do not assume you have the employee's permission to use that number on any other form or in any other way simply be virtue of its disclosure on Form I-9. You could possibly be in violation of the laws behind Form I-9!

Form W-4, Form W-2, Form W-3 and Form W-9: 

Let's examine W-4 first. The title of the form identifies it as an "allowance" certificate. Its only purpose is as a permission slip to ALLOW the non-governmental employer to withhold, (take) some money from the employee's compensation on behalf of government. If you think that ALLOWANCE implies a voluntary-act, you are correct! If the form is voluntary for those outside governmental employment, then what of its content including the spot for a number? We repeat: The submission of a W-4 form or any other alternative AND ITS CONTENTS is considered a voluntary act!

Common sense will dictate that one cannot make demands on behalf of government for:

(1) a form signed under oath, with:

(2) a severe penalty of perjury jurat for non truth when:

(3) someone is simply exchanging labor for compensation and when:

(4) the person demanding is not an authorized withholding agent of government.

Hint: Were you given a badge or written delegation of authority?

BEWARE: The IRS has consistently confused these two definitions especially in their publications and forms. Unfortunately-- as employers on our distribution list have identified--the IRS does not come to the aid of employers relying on IRS publications; the IRS is under the Executive Branch of government and that branch does NOT make law.

Thus, non-governmental employers make a BIG mistake if they automatically convert or assume one number for the other without the expressed permission of the employee. It is better to err on the side of safety and to simply refuse to "do the work of government”: In a government-declared "system of voluntary compliance by the making of a return", the non-governmental employer is without authority to create a "taxpayer": that responsibility is left to another. Our recommendation is that you as an employer should NOT attempt to "create taxpayers" from non-governmental employees.

REMEMBER: NON-GOVERNMENTAL EMPLOYERS CAN ONLY REQUEST AND NOT DEMAND!

Remember that the SSN is not "owned" by the employee and further your "need" is only to satisfy his benefit if he chooses to participate in government Social Security insurance and the government withholding program. Thus, if an employee refuses to include an SSN on any government form, that right is his own. These forms are creations of government and their existence and content cannot be made mandatory outside those in government employment.

Further, you need not inquire of his reasons. His reasons might range from religious "mark" aspects to simply never applying for an SSN or to not wanting to be forced to make an oath under penalty. And you as an employer have NOTHING to fear from not including an SSN on any government form you submit to government.

The fine for EACH employee is $50 and this can be waived by simply including this statement on the "transmittal document" you send with Form W-2 and W-3: "I requested an SSN [or Form W4]. This non-federal employee did not provide the number [or Form W4]. To my knowledge he is not a federal employee or government "individual" nor does he engage in federal (26 USC) "trade or business".

No law compels a work eligible man or woman to submit a form W-4 or W-9 (or their equivalent), nor disclose an SSN as a condition of being hired or keeping one's job.

With the exception of an order from a court of competent jurisdiction issued by a duly qualified judge, no amounts can be lawfully taken from one's pay (for taxes, fees or other charges) without the worker's explicit, knowing, voluntary, written consent.

Section 7 of Public Law 93-579 provides that:

(a)(1) It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual’s refusal to disclose Social Security account number.

There is no law requiring you to obtain or use the Social Security Number. The Social Security System is a voluntary System. The Social Security Act does not require a person to have an SSN to live and work in the United States of America, nor does it require an SSN simply for the purpose of having one.

If there was a law for the SSN, why does a major food chain, Taco Bell, have "optional" printed by the SSN on their applications?

The IRS only requires the employer/payer to request the SSN. If the employee/payee refuses to give or doesn’t have an SSN, the employer sends an affidavit to the IRS stating that they requested the SSN and the employee refused, (Indemnification Letter). The penalties will not be assessed against the employer.

See also:

Nowlin vs. D.M.V. 53 Cal. App. 4th 1529 Apr. 2, 1997

For video, see - http://constitutionclub.ning.com/

[Aaron Bolinger]

Wayne:

I'm one of the Founders of Sherman Institute (and a member here).  There is no "corporation" called Sherman Institute.  We set our operation up under an "Articles of Association" in much the same manner as the historic (1600's era) Guilds.  ("Sherman Institute Instructor's Guild" is our name.  No corporate charter, LLC or any of that poppycock.)  We publish a newsletter on occasion called "The Guilded Dialectician" (as a spoof on the "gold covered" [the definition of "gilded" -- only we spell it like the Guild itself...] notion of using gold/silver coin in constitutional transactions).  Of course, most here probably know what "dialectics" are all about, and of course we both teach Dialectics, and use it in our writings.  (At least we admit it...lol).

I posted elsewhere that we are looking for instructors, but that post is still, far as I know, "pending approval."  So if that shows up, and if any members here are potential instructors, just whistle.  Specifically, if anyone is sharply skilled on the Quadrivium side of learning (Euclidian Geometry, Conics, other higher maths, sciences or "Natural Philosophy") we really want to talk to that person. :)

Rosanna:

You should like that sermon I posted the link to earlier.  If you can navigate that radio station's archives, you'll get a kick out of my Jonathan Edwards-esque length (2 hour) sermons.  I feel like I'm being torn in pieces, dividing my time between the theological research needed for the radio work, and all the Poli-Sci stuff I'm doing for Sherman Institute, and otherwise.

I guess one of the best things I have to offer for the "activists" is something that (unfortunately) is no longer discussed much in any level of schooling -- Parliamentary Procedure.  To that end, I built a pair of Advanced Parliamentary Procedure (I & II) courses for S.I. that we desperately need students involved with.  Every time someone gets a "good" bill "stuck in committee" -- none of the activists involved have enough savvy with their state's particular "rule book(s)" to figure how to unglue it from the Chair's posterior.  This pair of courses goes into our "Certified Activist" (certificate program), or can be in the Major/Minor of Poli-Sci for degree-seeking students.

Most people think the "Mason's Manual" has something to do with Masonic lodges...LOL.  They have no idea that the "Thomas Jefferson of the 20th Century" was a gent named Paul Mason, and he wrote the Manual on Parliamentary Procedure that now about 70% of our state assemblies use as their "backup" procedure manual (secondary to the state constitution and the House/Senate rules established each session).

Grab the PDF from this LINK, and help us get it into circulation.  These courses are too valuable to be sitting here with only 1-2 students per academic semester.  I tailor the course TO THE STUDENT -- so that whatever state they are in, they learn from the PP manual actually used in their state House/Senate (Jefferson's & Roberts are also in the mix, in various states).  The APP level II course is a thorough study on the development of Parliamentary Procedure in the United States, with the primary source manual for that study being Cushing's.  This information is so obscure today, no wonder our activists seldom achieve anything more than something watered down being introduced, and even that languishes and dies without so much as a hearing.

Someone recently remarked that modern Americans are so now dumbed down as to not even be capable of being properly embarrassed at how dumb they are.  Truer words never spoken...  But Sherman Institute is capable of helping to correct those academic oversights.  Just need to get the word out, and find students that are not on the "free ride" education plan.  We don't take govt. grants/loans, prefer being paid in silver, and use Edwin Vieira's "Pieces of Eight: The Monetary Powers and Disabilities of the United States Constitution" as the textbook in another pair of Economics courses I built for S.I.  Bet ya can't find another campus using THAT tome to teach constitutional money, and the plan needed for the restoration thereof.

Aaron

[Wayne Bachmann]

Interesting!

The thought that just occurred to me while reading the message to Rosanna is that one reason people are so dumbed down is that there are so many subjects to study now that high tech has come on the scene. Cars and other equipment, planes, computers, medical, and other issues have taken over the minds of the intelligent sector. Dummies will always be dummies, but those who want to excel are being pulled into a multitude of directions nowadays.

[Aaron Bolinger]

That's a part of it...indeed, the "standard" of education hasn't changed to keep pace.  Depending on the school, 60 credit hours is the general amount needed for an Associate Degree, 120 for a Bachelors.  It was that way 50 years ago. To be even partially "computer literate," however, one still needs courses in LOGIC as well as others that give the "critical thinking" skill set.  Regardless of vocation, CRITICAL THINKING should be taught, and only the classical method (Trivium/Quadrivium program) imparts those skills at the level required of modern society.  There's the bigger problem.  "Rhetoric" is generally a footnote buried on page 300 of a "speech" course in modern academia.  In the early 1800's, a student took about 3 semesters worth of Rhetoric, and had to "declaim in the hall" (give speeches to prove what they were learning) throughout their entire academic career.  They also had advanced courses in Logic, Grammar, Philosophy, etc.  These are all but gone now, wrapped into a "Humanities" classification. 

Modern "History" courses carry titles like "Great Women in History" so as to be politically correct.  In the 1800's, in a course like "Tytler's History," you knew enough by the time you were done with it (and its Baccalaureate cohort courses) to be certified as a History instructor -- by THEIR higher standards.  It's crazy the way even "equal" hours of study today are so relaxed in what is actually taught/learned.  In Tytler's, you have "women in history" -- kings, queens, popes, whatever.  If there were women in the mix, you knew them -- like Queen "Bloody" Mary, and her interaction with the popes, barons, and her fondness for "cooked Protestants" which helped lead to our own 1st, 3rd, 4th and 6th Amendments, etc.  But I expound...save it for class. :)

Aaron

[Andee Kleinhans]

Isn't part of it also because there is little conservative values taught and by that I mean the Humanities, Civics,  that deal with other subjects than what is imparted by liberalism and the new word for Communist, Progressive?  Common Core is a movement that is rotten to the core.  If you haven't studied it, please do, but with you all here, I bet you have. 

[Aaron Bolinger]

Our  Dean of English is all up in the Common Core stuff.  If you dig backwards, you will discover people like Mortimer Adler in the 1950's referring to "the common core of university learning is the Trivium and Quadrivium."  Like so many other terms, the "progressives" are changing the definitions to suit their flavor of the month.  I like what Gordon Chesterton said of this topic:

“The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.”

'Bout sums it up...

But yeah, "civics" is no where close to what students studied a generation ago.  Ditto in just about every aspect of study.

Aaron

[Wayne Bachmann]

Looks pretty accurate to me.

[joseph cronin jr.]

i have an IQ of 50 . dna i evol nommoc eroc . I get every question almost right .

[Rosanna Miller]

I have a question. Can someone be PAID to testify on the stand against an alleged defendant? Is that legal? I don't think it is. Does anybody know?

[Wayne Bachmann]

Not lawfully, but I am sure it happens. You can be sure the State is making money on your dad being incarcerated. Snohomish County Jail charges the taxpayers $92.?? per night when I was locked up for crimes I am not guilty of. A lot of motels don't get that much, and then they get the inmates to do the laundry, cooking, and other details for free. The government makes a ton of money from their forced motel (service ?). I wish all citizens knew, and would take action, instead of being glued to their TV games, etc.which are a deliberate distraction being promoted by government to keep the public distracted while they jerk our rights away.

[Rosanna Miller]

I don't want to mislead anybody but he is locked up in a nursing home and won't let him go home and I can live at his home with him....  HE has tried to kill himself and commit suicide. the police reports are on my webpage. That is why they have him loaded on psychotropic drugs, abuse by chemical restraint to shut him up.

I will check my site but I am sure they were on there with the medical reports.. They labeled him bi-polar a year ago, for the first time in his life at 83, to validate putting him on Zyprexa which is what it is for. But it has a black box warning as a high mortality death rate for elders with dementia which is what Dad really has. 

Oh now Dad has been cured of the bi-polar as it is not listed anymore.... HUMmmmmmm...as God as my witness this is the truth.  

[Wayne Bachmann]

Your Dad has a right to do whatever he wants with his life, as long as he does not injure anyone else. The corporate government has no business doing anything with your dad, so long as he does not harm anyone else, and that is backed by Common Law of the Constitution, which is the supreme Law of the Land, and trumps the corporate legal system. He is probably being held there so as to justify the usage of his estate as collateral if he fails to pay for his extremely expensive room and board where he is. I know a certain lawyer who specializes in doing that sort of antic.

I would be filing UBC criminal charges against all applicable parties involved, and go after their bonds. Your estate is being held as collateral for the rest home bill, which is being used as an excuse to take his estate. Make it backfire on them. You are due a good settlement! This is called coercion and extortion, and involves a conspiracy. Go back to the Titles I gave you.

[Wayne Bachmann]

Even Dr. Kevorkian got off the hook for that one, when he was helping others check out early. Government has no business interfering with the lives of people as long as they aren't harming others.