Tax the Corporations Directly and the People Indirectly

[Keith Broaders]

INDIVIDUAL INCOME TAX RATES

CORPORATE INCOME TAX RATES

Taxing income is and always has been unconstitutional. Individuals have God given rights that include the right to life, liberty and property. When a person trades his labor for another man's money is not income. Income is the profit that one earns from corporate activity.

Corporations do not have rights because they are legal fictions created by governments. The do not have rights, they have privileges. I think that Congress should stop taxing the people and should increase the tax rates on corporations to over 50%. This would motivate many of the owners of corporations to become sole proprietorships.

Sole proprietorships would have a substantial advantage over corporations and would make it very difficult for the corporations to compete. One of the main functions of the Federal government is to protect the individual's lives, liberty and property from the abuse of power by corporations.

Giving a corporation a tax deduction for bribing Congressmen is a stupid idea. Corporation can't vote and they should not be allowed to donate money to elect candidates. Only individuals have rights and corporation have their power diminished.

A Corporate CEO should be taxed at the same rate as the corporations that employ them. Employees of corporations would also be subject to income tax because the money they receive is derived from corporate activity. Individuals that are not employees of corporations would not pay income tax while corporate employees would be subject to the income tax.

[John Gaver]

I've heard some screwball tax ideas over the years - 9-9-9 being the craziest… up to now. But this concept is so loony that it makes 9-9-9 look like a panacea, by comparison.

Let's see? The current top corporate tax rate in the USA is 35% and that tax rate is driving small and large corporations to daily ship jobs offshore and many are moving their entire business offshore - domicile, corporate office, and 100% of their jobs.

So with corporations already moving their entire operations offshore in record numbers, because of punitive U.S. corporate taxs, you propose to impose even more taxes on huge U.S. "employers" like GE, Chrysler (which is already foreign owned), and Anheuser-Busch (Wait! They're foreign owned, too!) and you don't see a disconnect here?

Those corporations aren't required to produce their products here. In fact, our tax structure is increasingly giving them incentive to produce their products elsewhere. In this day and age of easy worldwide communication and cheap transportation, the millions of jobs that large and small corporations provide in the USA can be easily moved to a more tax-friendly jurisdiction, as we are already seeing occur every day.

Make it impossible for corporations to compete with sole proprietorships in the USA and the USA would lose every major corporation and ALL of the jobs that they provide, within 6 months and likely, much sooner.

Let's face it. Sole proprietorships aren't going to build a quality car, produce miles of steel pipe, or build a large bridge. Things like that take larger companies than any individual can put together. Your proposal would mean that those Americans who still had a job, would be forced to buy mostly foreign products. The U.S. government would be buying planes and tanks from foreign corporations, since major manufacturers like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and Northrop Grumman would be forced to move their operations offshore.

Furthermore, your plan would be a hey-day for lawyers, since as you suggest, smaller corporations (primarily family-owned businesses) would convert to sole proprietorships, leaving no veil of incorporation to protect the owners of these small companies from losing everything they have to frivolous lawsuits. Many of them would be driven out of business, leaving even fewer jobs in the USA.

The plain and simple fact is that no business pays tax - any kind of tax. All business taxes, from income taxes, to property taxes, to excises taxes are just another cost of doing business that are passed on to the consumer, with profit tacked on, I might add. Furthermore, if the cost of doing business becomes too high in one jurisdiction, companies will simply move to another jurisdiction. We're seeing that as many California businesses are moving to other states. But there's nothing keeping any business from locating their entire operation to another country.

If any congress were to get anywhere close to passing a plan that would tax only corporations, it would spur an immediate depression, as corporations rushed to flee to more tax-friendly jurisdictions.

Instead of driving jobs out, we need to be looking at a tax regimen that will lure foreign businesses to move their corporate headquarters and jobs to the United States. There is only one such plan on the table. That's the FairTax. Princeton Econometrics asked 500 of the largest foreign manufacturers what they would do if the USA were to eliminate the income tax and go to a sales-tax-only regimen. 80% said they would build more factories in the USA and 20% said they would relocate their home office to the USA. The FairTax would be a tremendous job magnet.

Learn more about the logic behind the various tax reform plans. Read: "A ‘Goals-Based’ analysis of tax reform proposals" at http://therichdontpaytax.com/blog/?p=284 That article addresses 16 tax reform goals, one at a time, against each major type of tax reform. Read it and then use your own ratings for each goal. You might be surprised at what you determine from your own analysis, when you use a goals-based method to analyze tax reform concepts.

[Wayne Bachmann]

You are needing to be updated, John. Boeing is already having different plane parts built all over the world. The last time I was in Everett, Washington a couple years ago, they have huge fuselage planes that carry airliner fuselages from China and elsewhere, and other shipping planes also. Components are made all over the world, shipped to Everett, and elsewhere, for assembly. I am sure Boeing is not the only ones doing it. Those huge planes that ferry the fuselages look like huge pregnant guppies.

[John Gaver]

Actually, that's what they call those planes - "pregnant guppies."

The point is that Boing is still a US-domiciled corporation, paying US taxes on their worldwide profits and they still provide many US jobs. But like Microsoft, who has off-shored many jobs to India and other corporations that have undertaken similar moves, Boeing is quite familiar with offshore business. It follows that with that familiarity, if we continue to make it difficult for corporations to function here, they'll pick up the rest of their US marbles and move their entire operation offshore.

The more a company has invested offshore, the easier it is for them to make that final move. If we keep hitting corporations with punitive levels of taxation, I wouldn't be surprised to see Microsoft move entirely offshore. After all, lot's of their programming and customer support staff is already offshore.

Those that haven't gone, but have significant offshore presence are preparing for the eventuality that they may be forced offshore. Keep pushing them and they'll all go… along with their millions of jobs.

[Terry Trussell]

Regardless how you parse it, corporations don't, won't, can't pay taxes. Incorporation is a legal device to protect business owners from the personal liability of business losses. The only point at which taxes are logically generated is in the act of commerce when currency is exchanged for newly-produced goods or services between individual consumers and businesses. Punishing people for generating income or being fiscally responsible is counterproductive, expensive, and illogical. Tax deductions are fraud. Corporate taxes are fraud. ALL corporate taxes are a tax on the individual because corporate taxes (an expense) are simply added to the cost of their products and services.

If such strategies worked, let's tax government! Government pulls in $trillions every year and pays NO TAXES! And if we tax Government income, let's tax Government expenditures, too! And if that doesn't produce enough money, we'll just raise those taxes! We'll be rolling in money!!!

Whether taxes on the individual is Constitutional or not, aside, we need Government to do what we can't do better, individually. And we want to allocate our Government the resources we need to do the job we require it to do. We need a simple tax system. One that does not pit population sectors against each other; that doesn't reward some while punishing others; a tax system that is easy to understand, and one that is free of political manipulation and exploitation. Uh, let's see, we could call it The FAIR TAX!

[Morton Thomson Jr.]

Good one Terry, very funny. Tax the gov't. I love it, but we split there. We don't need a better tax system, we need to eliminate the institutions we are currently enslaved to and the agencies that administer. NO FAIR TAX! There is nothing fair about taxes. Fair Tax is an oxymoron.

[Terry Trussell]

Not the best name, I grant you. But if we have to have a tax system this is one I could live with--as long as the Sixteenth Amendment is repealed, first.

And if we do as you suggest (along with me, and many others) and eliminate the counter-productive, redundant, and burdensome federal agencies, our taxes would be inconsequential.

I just read a posting claiming the 'government' made a 'profit' last year--while bureaucrats increased our taxes!

See you in DC, May16!!!

[Morton Thomson Jr.]

Terry,

Read the SCOTUS  decision on the Sixteenth Amendment and you'll find that they clearly and unambiguously stated that the sixteenth Amendment changed nothing in the Constitution. It simply kept taxes from being removed from the class of excise taxes. The IRS will still to this day however, use the Sixteenth Amendment and Brushaber V. Union Pacific R.R. as their excuse for their unlawful actions. While they lie to their computers to initiate what is now appearing to be quite a one sided attack on free Citizens, they continue to act without ANY authority you don't give them. It truly is our own fault for; "If we don't all STAND together we shall all surely HANG apart."

[Wayne Bachmann]

Isn't taxing the government taxing ourselves, kind'a like a dog chasing its own tail????

I can't help but laugh about this one.

[Wayne Bachmann]

Government is not supposed to be involved with income. That is the problem. It has no business being in enterprise of any kind. It is not supposed to be a corporation, but a Republic.

[Keith Broaders]

Kings and Queens do not pay taxes because they are sovereign. Subjects pay taxes because they are not. If we the people created the government are we not sovereign? Is not the Creator superior to that which he creates? If we are subject to taxation, we are the servants and not the masters. In order for taxes to be lawful they must be voluntary.

Most of us would be willing to pay taxes if the money was being spent wisely on things that would truly benefit the people.

[Terry Trussell]

Sovereignty aside--People are the ONLY true POWER in any nation because they are the only source of PRODUCTIVITY. Only People can create WEALTH, through their ownership of PROPERTY. WE formed our Government to be our agent to carry out our group missions. If OUR Government is empowered by US to collect taxes from US, such taxes ARE voluntary.

Our current problem arises from errant employees (bureaucrats) of our Government, acting outside their conditions of employment (Our Constitution) to meet their personal objectives at the expense of meeting OUR group objectives.

Response to your Paragraph Two: I heartily agree.

[Wayne Bachmann]

Right on, Keith. I was just going to mention donations. The Church has been operating on donations, on and off since the time of Adam, and the only thing that has gone sour is when the People go wicked and forget about their Creator, and forget about being responsible.