SSN Not Required

[Morton Thomson Jr.]

"Rare is the case that an employer actually needs an SSN. Indeed the Social Security Administration admits the numbers are actually their property and further that “no one needs an SSN to work in the United States.”

This latter fact isn't widely known, but NOT knowing and demanding an SSN where no authority to demand exists could get the employee demanding same, and his employer, involved in a civil action. Our recommendation is frankly to not push the SSN issue with employees. If an employee provides an SSN even on taxation forms it should only be done voluntarily and with NO adverse actions taken in case he refuses.

Form I-9: To our knowledge the only spot that asks for an actual SSN (and not an implied TIN) is on form I-9. However nothing in the law actually states the employee must provide the number. Because primarily government forms are intended for government employees, the majority of "spots for information" are considered voluntary when used by the general population NOT engaged in federal employment.

A twist: Indeed, the restrictions of public law regarding I-9 disclosures can actually RESTRICT the employer from using that number on ANY other form. In other words, do not assume you have the employee's permission to use that number on any other form or in any other way simply be virtue of its disclosure on Form I-9. You could possibly be in violation of the laws behind Form I-9!

Form W-4, Form W-2, Form W-3 and Form W-9: 

Let's examine W-4 first. The title of the form identifies it as an "allowance" certificate. Its only purpose is as a permission slip to ALLOW the non-governmental employer to withhold, (take) some money from the employee's compensation on behalf of government. If you think that ALLOWANCE implies a voluntary-act, you are correct! If the form is voluntary for those outside governmental employment, then what of its content including the spot for a number? We repeat: The submission of a W-4 form or any other alternative AND ITS CONTENTS is considered a voluntary act!

Common sense will dictate that one cannot make demands on behalf of government for:

(1) a form signed under oath, with:

(2) a severe penalty of perjury jurat for non truth when:

(3) someone is simply exchanging labor for compensation and when:

(4) the person demanding is not an authorized withholding agent of government.

Hint: Were you given a badge or written delegation of authority?

BEWARE: The IRS has consistently confused these two definitions especially in their publications and forms. Unfortunately-- as employers on our distribution list have identified--the IRS does not come to the aid of employers relying on IRS publications; the IRS is under the Executive Branch of government and that branch does NOT make law.

Thus, non-governmental employers make a BIG mistake if they automatically convert or assume one number for the other without the expressed permission of the employee. It is better to err on the side of safety and to simply refuse to "do the work of government”: In a government-declared "system of voluntary compliance by the making of a return", the non-governmental employer is without authority to create a "taxpayer": that responsibility is left to another. Our recommendation is that you as an employer should NOT attempt to "create taxpayers" from non-governmental employees.

REMEMBER: NON-GOVERNMENTAL EMPLOYERS CAN ONLY REQUEST AND NOT DEMAND!

Remember that the SSN is not "owned" by the employee and further your "need" is only to satisfy his benefit if he chooses to participate in government Social Security insurance and the government withholding program. Thus, if an employee refuses to include an SSN on any government form, that right is his own. These forms are creations of government and their existence and content cannot be made mandatory outside those in government employment.

Further, you need not inquire of his reasons. His reasons might range from religious "mark" aspects to simply never applying for an SSN or to not wanting to be forced to make an oath under penalty. And you as an employer have NOTHING to fear from not including an SSN on any government form you submit to government.

The fine for EACH employee is $50 and this can be waived by simply including this statement on the "transmittal document" you send with Form W-2 and W-3: "I requested an SSN [or Form W4]. This non-federal employee did not provide the number [or Form W4]. To my knowledge he is not a federal employee or government "individual" nor does he engage in federal (26 USC) "trade or business".

No law compels a work eligible man or woman to submit a form W-4 or W-9 (or their equivalent), nor disclose an SSN as a condition of being hired or keeping one's job.

With the exception of an order from a court of competent jurisdiction issued by a duly qualified judge, no amounts can be lawfully taken from one's pay (for taxes, fees or other charges) without the worker's explicit, knowing, voluntary, written consent.

Section 7 of Public Law 93-579 provides that:

(a)(1) It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual’s refusal to disclose Social Security account number.

There is no law requiring you to obtain or use the Social Security Number. The Social Security System is a voluntary System. The Social Security Act does not require a person to have an SSN to live and work in the United States of America, nor does it require an SSN simply for the purpose of having one.

If there was a law for the SSN, why does a major food chain, Taco Bell, have "optional" printed by the SSN on their applications?

The IRS only requires the employer/payer to request the SSN. If the employee/payee refuses to give or doesn’t have an SSN, the employer sends an affidavit to the IRS stating that they requested the SSN and the employee refused, (Indemnification Letter). The penalties will not be assessed against the employer.

See also:

Nowlin vs. D.M.V. 53 Cal. App. 4th 1529 Apr. 2, 1997

For video, see - http://constitutionclub.ning.com/

[Morton Thomson Jr.]

DITTO

May I ask what Hospital? I was born there in CA. March AFB, Moreno Valley, Riverside County.

[Simon Leland]

Thanks Guys.  Without the support of other Patriots like yourselves, I would just be another nut case they would lock away.  

I felt very alone up against the "man" with family and friends looking at me like I was mad.  Thank God for my wife, whom I've only recently woken up. When the first nurse was telling me, "Dr's orders, you have no choice" I asked if we were in Communist Russia, and if the hospital was going to throw us out on the street... My wife stepped in and (almost nicely) told the nurse to get the hell out of the room.

It was Marion Hospital in Santa Maria, CA.  And I don't mean anything to give the hospital a bad name.  Everyone was friendly and nice, and just doing their job... just like Auschwitz.  It's an entire generation of brainwashed Americans doing what they have been schooled to think is best.  

Simon

[Wayne Bachmann]

Very well put Simon!

[Osceola Renegade]

Simon;

Years ago, my son was admitted.  I have always stated to the Wife, always write on his admittance form, No Invasive Surgery Permitted without Parent Approval; and no drugs or medication can be administered without discussion and approval.  (He had Seizures and was allergic to many meds).

In he goes, first thing I know is he is on HALDOL (and has tardive dyskinesia - facial paralysis).

That cost the Hospital over $40,000 because I refused to permit them to file for insurance; and it cost the Doctor around $12 to 13 thousand for being stupid.

The Hospital would not let me speak with the Administrator so I went to the Information Center in the Lobby, asked them to call the Administrator (they did and he again refused), lobby full of people, Started YELLING, "What Kind of Torture Chamber are you running, you killed my son, and now will not talk with me"  Within 30 seconds, I was in the Senior VP for Admittance Office, and within 5 Minutes, all ward Supervisors, and (the doctor did not show) Financial Managers were in the office.

I asked them to read the admittance record - hey did.  SHOCK.

Then I advised them of the GOLDEN RULE.  HE WHO HAS THE GOLD RULES.

They dismissed the full accounting for Hospital expense on the spot.

The Doctor Sued; and then begged me to drop his law suit. 

If you get in a Hospital Dispute; challenge every bill.  "I protest because of----"

Most states have protest laws.  Once you protest, nothing can be done legally until the protest is resolved.  BY BY Doctor Strangelove.

[Simon Leland]

Only in America!!

Years ago I was in a motorcycle crash and someone called 911.  The police and ambulance came to help.. although I said I was fine and didn't need help.  They insisted that I had hit my head and I wasn't thinking clearly and needed to go to the hospital (though there was not a scratch on my helmet)....

Anyway after a few min of arguing the police officer told me that if I didn't let the ambulance workers take me that he would arrest me and cuff me to the stretcher.... 10 hours and $80,000 later they finally released me from the hospital after doing NOTHING to help me.  The cops had taken my wallet and insurance card and provided it to the hospital..... when released I called my insurance company and informed them NOT to pay a penny and told them the whole story. They said, it's okay we'll pay it.  I quickly let them know that I would not be paying my $8k portion of the bill and after a week of back and forth they dropped all fees.  WTF??? is right!

[Wayne Bachmann]

That sounds very similar to the assault I am now suing for. Domination and control by the Mafia.

[Rosanna Miller]

Ya know Morton for starting off as a subject that falls below the level of priority considering the issues in my life (not that this isn't important or bad) this thread turned out to be PACKED FULL of a WEALTH of LINKS and INFORMATION that I have put in my favorites........

Just goes to prove sometimes you never know what it will lead to.....

[Morton Thomson Jr.]

Yes I know Rosanna,

It may seem like a low priority right now on anyone's radar, but I assure you this is more dangerous to you than most of the other things we talk about. I almost didn't run this subject off the presses. It almost got left on the cutting room floor. Suffice it to say, I try to push people's argument button. Some might call it controversial. I just think I'm smarter than everyone else, but I'm open to opinions. BTW, that's a joke. I think I'm funny too.

[Wayne Bachmann]

I am not smarter than anyone else, but I am a "blood circulator"! And I don't think it is a low priority. It took me a couple times of reading to grasp what I think may have been the real point, but it is clear you have smelled out one of the leading rats, and my interpretation of the Republic President's message is that of a public warning not to violate our rights, and also a disclaimer of sorts, if they do continue to violate our rights. We are peaceful, but we have a right to defend ourselves, as well as claim remedy for the many wrongdoings we have been made to endure.

[Osceola Renegade]

I just rely on BUBBA LOGIC.

[joseph cronin jr.]

I like the 11th commandment ' thou shalt not pontificate ; it's like spreading manure ; it stinks .

[Morton Thomson Jr.]

Welcome back joseph. I had an uncle Josie. I am of Romanian descent on my Mother's side. That's why the Jewish names. My name is Scottish though cause of my Dad.